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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I] Oracle: Research for a script
[I] Oracle: Research for a script [message #294284] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 15:42
Torak  
I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."

Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
murder mysteries...
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294288 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 17:51
Menno Flexor Willemse  
Torak wrote:
> I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
> something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
> something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
> should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
> something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
> have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
>
> Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
> murder mysteries...

Fugu? "It was immediately clear to me that the culprit had spiked the
victim's bisque with Fugu, a highly poisonous fish found only in the
Japanese territorial waters. If the fish is not properly cleaned, death
is almost instantaneous. The slight tingle of the lips, when the broth
is tasted, is quite distinct for one who has spent several years
building up a resistance to the poison, as I have. Isn't that true...
Mr Yoshizaki?[1]"



[1] Slurp that robot if you can!
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294289 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 17:55
Torak  
Menno Flexor Willemse wrote:
> Torak wrote:
> > I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> > of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> > his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
> > something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
> > something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
> > should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
> > something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
> > have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
> >
> > Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
> > murder mysteries...
>
> Fugu? "It was immediately clear to me that the culprit had spiked the
> victim's bisque with Fugu, a highly poisonous fish found only in the
> Japanese territorial waters. If the fish is not properly cleaned, death
> is almost instantaneous. The slight tingle of the lips, when the broth
> is tasted, is quite distinct for one who has spent several years
> building up a resistance to the poison, as I have. Isn't that true...
> Mr Yoshizaki?[1]"
>
> [1] Slurp that robot if you can!

Myeah... but fugu's lethal to *everyone*. For interesting plot reasons
it has to be a rare allergy, or something that'll kill only the target.
Re: [I] Oracle: Research for a script [message #294290 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 17:48
esmi  
on 03/07/2006 14:42 Torak said the following:
> I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies?

Beeswax if someone was allergic to bees? It was often used to waterproof
medieval pottery jugs and has little or no taste if just a small amount
is used. If not strained before using, it can contain all kinds of
'rubbish'[1] from the hive which causes problems when making beeswax
candles[1] but not when using it to, for example, wax wood[2].

--
esmi
[1] Including pollen and propolis - both of which are known to have
occasionally caused severe reactions.
[2] Which is why candle beeswax is normally bought pre-strained or
melted and strained before using.
[3] When the wax is usually unstrained because that makes it cheaper.

A Brief Guide to alt.fan.pratchett:
http://www.blackwidows.co.uk/afp-guide/
Re: [I] Oracle: Research for a script [message #294293 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 17:35
Thomas Zahr  
Torak posted:

....

> Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to
> death in murder mysteries...

Sulphides in wine. Some (very very few) asthmatics are
allergic to them. I don't know the numbers, but it is very
rare.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<If god is omnipotent, why create monday to friday?>
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294297 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 18:46
Matthew Seaman  
"Torak" <awmperry [at] gmail.com> writes:

> Menno Flexor Willemse wrote:
> > Torak wrote:
> > > I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> > > of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> > > his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
> > > something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
> > > something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
> > > should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
> > > something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
> > > have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
> > >
> > > Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
> > > murder mysteries...
> >
> > Fugu? "It was immediately clear to me that the culprit had spiked the
> > victim's bisque with Fugu, a highly poisonous fish found only in the
> > Japanese territorial waters. If the fish is not properly cleaned, death
> > is almost instantaneous. The slight tingle of the lips, when the broth
> > is tasted, is quite distinct for one who has spent several years
> > building up a resistance to the poison, as I have. Isn't that true...
> > Mr Yoshizaki?[1]"
> >
> > [1] Slurp that robot if you can!
>
> Myeah... but fugu's lethal to *everyone*. For interesting plot reasons
> it has to be a rare allergy, or something that'll kill only the target.

Very tricky -- a substance capable of killing one person at a dinner
party would at least tend to make everyone else that ate it ill. It's
also quite unusual for a poison to have instant effect. Generally it
takes some hours before sufficient reaches the small intestine and
starts getting absorbed and any symptoms are felt.

Instantaneously lethal poisons typically either have to be inhaled, or
absorbed across the skin or mucosal membranes or enter the body via an
open wound. You could have one member of the dinner party cut their
mouth somehow, or have stomach ulcers and then spike the food with,
say, snake venom. That's a protein that in theory you can eat and
digest and it would be totally harmless (even nutiritious) after your
digestive protease enzymes had got at it in your stomach. Unless it
could get direct into the blood stream.

Cheers,

Matthew

--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard
Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
Kent, CT11 9PW
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294312 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 20:35
Torak  
Matthew Seaman wrote:
> "Torak" <awmperry [at] gmail.com> writes:
> > Menno Flexor Willemse wrote:
> > > Torak wrote:
> > > > I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> > > > of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> > > > his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
> > > > something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
> > > > something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
> > > > should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
> > > > something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
> > > > have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
> > > > murder mysteries...
> > >
> > > Fugu? "It was immediately clear to me that the culprit had spiked the
> > > victim's bisque with Fugu, a highly poisonous fish found only in the
> > > Japanese territorial waters. If the fish is not properly cleaned, death
> > > is almost instantaneous. The slight tingle of the lips, when the broth
> > > is tasted, is quite distinct for one who has spent several years
> > > building up a resistance to the poison, as I have. Isn't that true...
> > > Mr Yoshizaki?[1]"
> > >
> > > [1] Slurp that robot if you can!
> >
> > Myeah... but fugu's lethal to *everyone*. For interesting plot reasons
> > it has to be a rare allergy, or something that'll kill only the target.
>
> Very tricky -- a substance capable of killing one person at a dinner
> party would at least tend to make everyone else that ate it ill. It's
> also quite unusual for a poison to have instant effect. Generally it
> takes some hours before sufficient reaches the small intestine and
> starts getting absorbed and any symptoms are felt.
>
> Instantaneously lethal poisons typically either have to be inhaled, or
> absorbed across the skin or mucosal membranes or enter the body via an
> open wound. You could have one member of the dinner party cut their
> mouth somehow, or have stomach ulcers and then spike the food with,
> say, snake venom. That's a protein that in theory you can eat and
> digest and it would be totally harmless (even nutiritious) after your
> digestive protease enzymes had got at it in your stomach. Unless it
> could get direct into the blood stream.

Yeah... basically what I'm aiming for is an allergy. I mean, peanut
allergies can cause anaphylactic shock to set in really quickly, and
are potentially fatal; adding peanuts to a dish at a dinner where only
one person is allergic would kill that person and no one else.

So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
one person at the dinner has the allergy. You know, like bananas or
something. Any thoughts?
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294315 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 20:48
alec  
In article <1151951719.810681.98940 [at] p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
awmperry [at] gmail.com says...

> So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
> one person at the dinner has the allergy. You know, like bananas or
> something. Any thoughts?

Penicillin? I got the "warning shot" reaction last time I took it, so I
have been told never, ever to take it again - plenty of othr
antibiotics. Easy to obtain.
Re: [I] Oracle: Research for a script [message #294322 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 21:46
esmi  
on 03/07/2006 19:48 Alec Cawley said the following:
> In article <1151951719.810681.98940 [at] p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> awmperry [at] gmail.com says...

>> So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
>> one person at the dinner has the allergy.

> Penicillin? I got the "warning shot" reaction last time I took it, so I
> have been told never, ever to take it again

I got the "Oh my god!" reaction the last time I took it about...oh...20
years ago. However, I got the feeling that the reaction is unpredictable
and could easily be highly dramatic but not actually life threatening
sometimes. Not that I intend to test this theory out, you understand.

> plenty of other
> antibiotics.

Yeh - but they all have side effects. And I've developed a sensitivity
to a second antibiotic in the meantime. :-(

--
esmi

A Brief Guide to alt.fan.pratchett:
http://www.blackwidows.co.uk/afp-guide/
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294340 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 23:50
FiX01  
On 3 Jul 2006 11:35:19 -0700, "Torak" <awmperry [at] gmail.com> wrote:

[...]
>So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
>one person at the dinner has the allergy. You know, like bananas or
>something. Any thoughts?

Seafood. Seen the effects of seafood allergy, can be _very_ quick (in
French, oedème de Quink). And seafood can be innocently added to a
soufflé or a soup without the taste being altered much.

FiX
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294371 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 01:17
Peter Ellis  
Torak wrote:
>
> Yeah... basically what I'm aiming for is an allergy. I mean, peanut
> allergies can cause anaphylactic shock to set in really quickly, and
> are potentially fatal; adding peanuts to a dish at a dinner where only
> one person is allergic would kill that person and no one else.
>
> So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
> one person at the dinner has the allergy. You know, like bananas or
> something. Any thoughts?

*shrug* Pick a food of your choice. People can get allergic to the
weirdest things. You *want* it to be weird, so it's not like any of us can
pick a commonly-occuring allergy for you to use, since that would negate the
point. Allergic to a particular food colouring, allergic to pineapple,
allergic to kumquat, allergic to mushy peas....

Just be careful how you introduce the McGuffin. Unless you want it to be a
case of "But Doctor, how did you *know* he had a fatal allergy to
nasally-ingested broccoli?" To which the answer presumably is "I checked
his wallet and found a membership card for NasoBrocPhylactics Anonymous."

Peter
Re: [I] Oracle: Research for a script, now with spoiler for The [message #294372 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 01:18
Lesley Weston  
in article 1151934158.171767.247280 [at] j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Torak at
awmperry [at] gmail.com wrote on 03/07/2006 6:42 AM:

Spoiler for The da Vinci Code
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
> I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
> something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
> something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
> should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
> something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
> have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
>
> Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
> murder mysteries...
>
As in TDVC [1], you mean? There are all sorts of rare allergies that could
bring on anaphylactic shock, such as peanuts and eggs, but it's been done
and many people have read that book. I did read one nice murder that's
probably less well known [2], where the victim was allergic to cats. He was
shut into a confined space where cats usually slept, without his asthma
inhaler, and obligingly had a fatal asthma attack. The murderer was caught
because the detective thought it odd that the victim didn't have his inhaler
with him, so if you made it some other animal and arranged for the murderer
to restore the victim's inhaler before the body is found, it could work.

[1] I've read it now. It strikes me as a rattling good yarn and no worse
written than many such. I don't know what all the fuss is about, either way,
but I've ordered "Angels and Demons" from the library.

[2] Unfortunately, I can remember neither the author nor the title.

--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294373 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 01:21
Lesley Weston  
in article MPG.1f1376d56ccc48fa989d3c [at] news.individual.net, Alec Cawley at
alec [at] spamspam.co.uk wrote on 03/07/2006 11:48 AM:

> In article <1151951719.810681.98940 [at] p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> awmperry [at] gmail.com says...
>
>> So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
>> one person at the dinner has the allergy. You know, like bananas or
>> something. Any thoughts?
>
> Penicillin? I got the "warning shot" reaction last time I took it, so I
> have been told never, ever to take it again - plenty of othr
> antibiotics. Easy to obtain.

I don't think it's instantly fatal, though. You just get really ill for a
long time, and some people die instead of recovering.

--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Re: [I] Oracle: Research for a script [message #294379 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 03:51
nomail  
> I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
> of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
> his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
> something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
> something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
> should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
> something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
> have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
>
> Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
> murder mysteries...


Pixy eggs. Tastes slightly "off" when eaten by most people, but usually
fatal to people who break out in hives when around pixies. Causes death
by asphyxiation, basically like a super asthma attack.
Re: [I] Oracle: Research for a script [message #294384 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 08:16
Brenda  
Boyd Bottorff said:

>> I'm working on a script which involves a murder, so I need a good way
>> of bumping off a character. I'm planning to have something slipped in
>> his food - can anyone think of any rare allergies? Ideally it should be
>> something capable of causing immediate and fatal anaphylactic shock (or
>> something else fatal quickly enough to make resus difficult), and it
>> should be something with a very faint taste. Basically it should be
>> something that most people wouldn't be able to taste, but where I can
>> have someone say "Mmm, there's a hint of [foo] in this."
>>
>> Any thoughts? Peanut allergies and things have been done to death in
>> murder mysteries...
>
>
> Pixy eggs. Tastes slightly "off" when eaten by most people, but usually
> fatal to people who break out in hives when around pixies. Causes death
> by asphyxiation, basically like a super asthma attack.

You just missed a perfect opportunity to use the word "aspixieation". BLNT.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294396 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 11:27
Eric Jarvis  
Peter Ellis pjie2 [at] cam.ac.uk wrote in <4gtmt5F1p0vhgU1 [at] individual.net>:
> Torak wrote:
> >
> > Yeah... basically what I'm aiming for is an allergy. I mean, peanut
> > allergies can cause anaphylactic shock to set in really quickly, and
> > are potentially fatal; adding peanuts to a dish at a dinner where only
> > one person is allergic would kill that person and no one else.
> >
> > So I'm looking for something similar, where it's plausible that only
> > one person at the dinner has the allergy. You know, like bananas or
> > something. Any thoughts?
>
> *shrug* Pick a food of your choice. People can get allergic to the
> weirdest things. You *want* it to be weird, so it's not like any of us can
> pick a commonly-occuring allergy for you to use, since that would negate the
> point. Allergic to a particular food colouring, allergic to pineapple,
> allergic to kumquat, allergic to mushy peas....
>
> Just be careful how you introduce the McGuffin. Unless you want it to be a
> case of "But Doctor, how did you *know* he had a fatal allergy to
> nasally-ingested broccoli?" To which the answer presumably is "I checked
> his wallet and found a membership card for NasoBrocPhylactics Anonymous."
>

That covers most of my thoughts on the subject. As I understand it, which
is a lot less than Peter does, it's possible to be allergic to just about
anything edible. It's also possible to never have any noticeable warning
of the allergy prior to a fatal or near fatal reaction. a member of my
family never ate tuna until he was in his late thirties, at which point he
discovered that a mere taste sent him to spend several days in intensive
care. If he'd not been near a good hospital he may well not have made it
through.

All you need is such a thing to have happened in the past to the person
you need inhumed. You need that to be mentioned in a way that doesn't seem
clunky, such as making it the reason that character behaves a particular
way. Voila, instant assassination plan, but presented to the reader as a
little character quirk.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294419 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 16:45
esmi  
on 04/07/2006 00:21 Lesley Weston said the following:
> in article MPG.1f1376d56ccc48fa989d3c [at] news.individual.net, Alec Cawley at
> alec [at] spamspam.co.uk wrote on 03/07/2006 11:48 AM:

>> Penicillin? I got the "warning shot" reaction last time I took it, so I
>> have been told never, ever to take it again - plenty of othr
>> antibiotics. Easy to obtain.

> I don't think it's instantly fatal, though. You just get really ill for a
> long time, and some people die instead of recovering.

It can be fatal if you don't get medical attention *very* quickly. In my
case, the penicillin induced a form of convulsive attack. In this
situation, the concern is that the person will asphyxiate on their own
tongue and, having survived such an attack, I can vouch for the fact
that the 'victim' would be completely powerless to prevent it.

I also suffered severe and rapid swelling of the face and neck. In
common with many anaphylactic attacks, it's entirely possible for this
swelling to rapidly constrict breathing and cause death within minutes.

Yes - it's not instant but then even many known poisons don't kill
instantly but take a few minutes to work. Based upon what I've
experienced with penicillin and what I know of anaphylactic reactions, I
think it would be valid to place penicillin under the same heading as
these poisons in the right circumstances.

--
esmi

A Brief Guide to alt.fan.pratchett:
http://www.blackwidows.co.uk/afp-guide/
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294420 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 16:34
esmi  
on 04/07/2006 00:17 Peter Ellis said the following:
<snip>

> People can get allergic to the
> weirdest things. You *want* it to be weird, so it's not like any of us can
> pick a commonly-occuring allergy for you to use, since that would negate the
> point. Allergic to a particular food colouring, allergic to pineapple,
> allergic to kumquat, allergic to mushy peas....
<snip>

I had a collegaue who was so allergic to bromelin[1] that she couldn't
remain in a room where it was being used in liquid form even if she was
20 foot away! One on occasion, sampling a friend's ice cream sundae that
contained (unbeknownst to us) a small amount of pineapple syrup induced
a full-blown anaphylactic attack that required emergency medical treatment.

--
esmi

[1] An enzyme obtained from pineapples

A Brief Guide to alt.fan.pratchett:
http://www.blackwidows.co.uk/afp-guide/
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294430 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 17:42
Arthur Hagen  
Peter Ellis <pjie2 [at] cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> *shrug* Pick a food of your choice. People can get allergic to the
> weirdest things. You *want* it to be weird, so it's not like any of
> us can pick a commonly-occuring allergy for you to use, since that
> would negate the point. Allergic to a particular food colouring,
> allergic to pineapple, allergic to kumquat, allergic to mushy peas....

The biggest problem is when you're not allergic to the weirdest things, but
the commonest things.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294593 ] Mi, 05 Juli 2006 02:38
Lesley Weston  
in article e8duup$fb9$1 [at] mud.stack.nl, esmi at esmi [at] lspace.org wrote on
04/07/2006 7:45 AM:

> on 04/07/2006 00:21 Lesley Weston said the following:
>> in article MPG.1f1376d56ccc48fa989d3c [at] news.individual.net, Alec Cawley at
>> alec [at] spamspam.co.uk wrote on 03/07/2006 11:48 AM:
>
>>> Penicillin? I got the "warning shot" reaction last time I took it, so I
>>> have been told never, ever to take it again - plenty of othr
>>> antibiotics. Easy to obtain.
>
>> I don't think it's instantly fatal, though. You just get really ill for a
>> long time, and some people die instead of recovering.
>
> It can be fatal if you don't get medical attention *very* quickly. In my
> case, the penicillin induced a form of convulsive attack. In this
> situation, the concern is that the person will asphyxiate on their own
> tongue and, having survived such an attack, I can vouch for the fact
> that the 'victim' would be completely powerless to prevent it.
>
> I also suffered severe and rapid swelling of the face and neck. In
> common with many anaphylactic attacks, it's entirely possible for this
> swelling to rapidly constrict breathing and cause death within minutes.

OK, I didn't know that penicillin worked like peanuts etc., I thought it
took a few hours to start happening. Such an attack must have been really
nasty for you, and quite terrifying. I hope you carry an EpiPen now?

Come to think of it, that could spoil Torak's story. If someone knows
that they're so dangerously allergic to anything, chances are they will be
carrying an EpiPen and that would save their life. Unless it was a situation
like that of Eric's relative, but then how would the murderer know about the
allergy if even the victim doesn't?

--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294664 ] Mi, 05 Juli 2006 11:46
esmi  
on 05/07/2006 01:38 Lesley Weston said the following:
> in article e8duup$fb9$1 [at] mud.stack.nl, esmi at esmi [at] lspace.org wrote on
> 04/07/2006 7:45 AM:
<snip>
>> I also suffered severe and rapid swelling of the face and neck. In
>> common with many anaphylactic attacks, it's entirely possible for this
>> swelling to rapidly constrict breathing and cause death within minutes.

> OK, I didn't know that penicillin worked like peanuts etc., I thought it
> took a few hours to start happening.

I think the time that elapsed between taking *that* tablet and the
attack starting was about 15 minutes. However, there were no
pre-warnings during that period and, once it started, it progressed very
quickly.

> Such an attack must have been really
> nasty for you, and quite terrifying.

Actually the first thing that occured to me was that I'd fallen asleep
and was dreaming the whole thing! Not being able to control one's own
body seemed impossible. Fortunately my mother was close by and
recognised the symptoms immediately as her own sister has suffered a
similar attack only weeks earlier. A doctor arrived shortly after.

> I hope you carry an EpiPen now?

No. I did ask but was told that the chances of me being given penicillin
unawares were negligible. I did try wearing a medi-alert bracelet for a
while but the darn thing fell to bits after about 6 months. For the time
being I've compromised on making sure that everyone knows I shouldn't be
allowed in the same room as penicillin and ensuring that every medical
record of mine has the the same information on the front in Big Red Letters.

--
esmi

A Brief Guide to alt.fan.pratchett:
http://www.blackwidows.co.uk/afp-guide/
-I- Penicillin was Re: Oracle: Research for a script [message #294726 ] Mi, 05 Juli 2006 18:42
Lesley Weston  
in article e8g3ae$2388$1 [at] mud.stack.nl, esmi at esmi [at] lspace.org wrote on
05/07/2006 2:46 AM:

<Anaphylactic shock>

>> I hope you carry an EpiPen now?
>
> No. I did ask but was told that the chances of me being given penicillin
> unawares were negligible. I did try wearing a medi-alert bracelet for a
> while but the darn thing fell to bits after about 6 months. For the time
> being I've compromised on making sure that everyone knows I shouldn't be
> allowed in the same room as penicillin and ensuring that every medical
> record of mine has the the same information on the front in Big Red Letters.

That should work. Even having an EpiPen doesn't always mean that one carries
it. I have a friend who is deathly allergic to eggs. When I was working we
used to meet for lunch most days at a canteen that uses eggs a lot, and half
the time she would forget to bring her EpiPen. The canteen was in a
hospital, but still she was taking a serious risk - time is really important
in such a situation. She said that swigging down a whole bottle of
paediatric liquid anti-histamine would keep her alive long enough for help
to reach her, but she didn't bring that either.

I used to use penicillin as part of the antibiotic mix for
tissue-culture medium, weighing out the dry powder which is very light and
easily floats about in the air. This was one of the routine jobs I used to
give to students, always asking first if they were allergic to penicillin.
Just once I got "yes" for the answer, so then that student couldn't do
anything involving medium, which means nearly everything that happens in a
tissue-culture lab. She was a very careful sort of person, one of the best
students I ever had, so she persuaded me to let her use the made-up medium
with much-diluted antibiotic mix in it; she wore gloves and a mask to do so
and she didn't come to any harm.

--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Re: [I] Poisons // was Oracle: Research for a script [message #294820 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 05:10
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Matthew Seaman wrote:

> Very tricky -- a substance capable of killing one person at a dinner
> party would at least tend to make everyone else that ate it ill. It's
> also quite unusual for a poison to have instant effect. Generally it
> takes some hours before sufficient reaches the small intestine and
> starts getting absorbed and any symptoms are felt.
>
> Instantaneously lethal poisons typically either have to be inhaled, or
> absorbed across the skin or mucosal membranes or enter the body via an
> open wound.

How do instantaneously lethal poisons generally work anyway, at a
chemical level? AIUI, most poisons work by reacting with a substance
the body needs, in effect removing that substance. But for such a
poison to be instantaneous, (a) it would have to make contact with a
critical amount of Vital Substance very rapidly, which means that it
would have to immediately get to wherever in the body Vital Substance
resides, and (b) Vital Substance would have to be one that the body
cannot tolerate any reduction in, not even for a fraction of a second.

It's sort of counter-intuitive that there are poisons which can be so,
well, poisonous.

Adrian.
Re: [I] Poisons // was Oracle: Research for a script [message #294827 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 05:23
Stacie Hanes  
8'FED wrote:
> Matthew Seaman wrote:
>
>> Very tricky -- a substance capable of killing one person at a
>> dinner party would at least tend to make everyone else that ate it
>> ill. It's also quite unusual for a poison to have instant effect.
>> Generally it takes some hours before sufficient reaches the small
>> intestine and starts getting absorbed and any symptoms are felt.
>>
>> Instantaneously lethal poisons typically either have to be
>> inhaled, or absorbed across the skin or mucosal membranes or enter
>> the body via an open wound.
>
> How do instantaneously lethal poisons generally work anyway, at a
> chemical level?

Consider neurotoxins...all they have to do is get to the right nerve center
and paralyze it, which can happen in one or two beats of the heart,
depending on administration route.

Oversimplified, but that's the basic deal.
Re: [I] Severe allergic reactions // was Oracle: Research for a script [message #294838 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 08:40
Flesh-eating Dragon  
esmi wrote:
> Lesley Weston said:
>> esmi wrote:

>>> I also suffered severe and rapid swelling of the face and neck. In
>>> common with many anaphylactic attacks, it's entirely possible for this
>>> swelling to rapidly constrict breathing and cause death within minutes.
>
>> OK, I didn't know that penicillin worked like peanuts etc., I thought it
>> took a few hours to start happening.

That would depend on individual thingies. I was, I think, three years
old when I reacted with penicillin [1], so I can't remember it. But
for all the things that I'm told happened at the time *to* happen, it
must have occured over a fairly long timespan.

>> I hope you carry an EpiPen now?
>
> No. I did ask but was told that the chances of me being given penicillin
> unawares were negligible. I did try wearing a medi-alert bracelet for a while
> but the darn thing fell to bits after about 6 months.

The cheap medic-alert bracelets catch on things very easily, whereas
the more expensive silver ones are not adjustable and are way too big
for anyone with remotely normal arms. Mine (silver) is currently
sitting on a bench.

Adrian.

[1] I'd say "experienced a reaction to penicillin" but I am not so
heartless as to deprive people of more interesting mental images.
Re: [I] Severe allergic reactions // was Oracle: Research for a script [message #296751 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 18:22
Jens Ayton  
8'FED:
>
> The cheap medic-alert bracelets catch on things very easily, whereas
> the more expensive silver ones are not adjustable and are way too big
> for anyone with remotely normal arms. Mine (silver) is currently
> sitting on a bench.

My warning-this-person-is-on-warfarin thingie is a necklace, which
solves the problem quite nicely.

--
\\\\ Jens Ayton, Fratello di Vetinari 36.3636363636364% insane
\\\\\__, Bringing sarcastic one-liners to the common hedgehog since 1999
\\\\\`/
Re: [I] Poisons // was Oracle: Research for a script [message #296777 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 20:36
Matthew Seaman  
"Anastasia" <house_damodred [at] yahoo.com> writes:

> 8'FED wrote:
> > Matthew Seaman wrote:
> >
> >> Very tricky -- a substance capable of killing one person at a
> >> dinner party would at least tend to make everyone else that ate it
> >> ill. It's also quite unusual for a poison to have instant effect.
> >> Generally it takes some hours before sufficient reaches the small
> >> intestine and starts getting absorbed and any symptoms are felt.
> >>
> >> Instantaneously lethal poisons typically either have to be
> >> inhaled, or absorbed across the skin or mucosal membranes or enter
> >> the body via an open wound.
> >
> > How do instantaneously lethal poisons generally work anyway, at a
> > chemical level?
>
> Consider neurotoxins...all they have to do is get to the right nerve center
> and paralyze it, which can happen in one or two beats of the heart,
> depending on administration route.
>
> Oversimplified, but that's the basic deal.

Yes -- 'instantaneous' here is 'long enough for the circulation to get
them somewhere vulnerable', which is generally no more than a few
seconds.

The most lethal critter in the world is (I believe) the Box Jellyfish.
Yes, as you would expect, specifically the species found in the waters
off Australia. No need to go against a perfectly good stereotype.

But it is the most lethal critter in the world because it has somehow
evolved a poison that will specifically stop the heart of a
vertebrate, and that based on maybe the contents of a few dozen
stinger cells. Of course, all the toxin has to do is disrupt the
operation a bunch of cells about the same volume as a match-head: the
sinoatrial node. Heart goes into VF. You're dead in less than a
minute.

Lots of really fast poisons work by paralysing the breathing muscles
-- in which case, it's about a minute or so before you lose
consciousness, then around 4 minutes before irreversible brain damage
occurs.

Cheers,

Matthew

--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard
Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
Kent, CT11 9PW
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